Reagent said:
In 1128, Afonso of Burgundy instigated a revolt against the Kingdom of León. After defeating the Moors at Ourique in 1139, Afonso was proclaimed "King of Portucale" by his soldiers. However, in 1141, Afonso was defeated in the Battle of Valdevez by Alfonso VII of León, and "Portucale" was reincorporated into León.
What would have happened if Afonso of Burgundy won the Battle of Valdevez? What would an independent Portucale look like? Would the presence of a rival state in Iberia hinder Spain's colonial ventures during Age of Exploration?
SlyDessertFox said:
I imagine the most likely outcome is Portucale goes the way of Castille and Aragon-eventually they'll be incorporated into Leon and a united Iberian peninsula. If they can remain independent I don't think they can hinder Spanish exploration unless they expand all the way down to Cadiz. I imagine they'll compete with Leon for control over Morocco, and maybe establish a few outposts and small colonies, but I can't see them posing any real competition in global exploration and trade.
Implied said:
Might Afonso de Burgundy be able to successfully follow his success at Ourique by expanding further south at the expense of the Moors? Perhaps even as far south as the Algarves, if they precede the Castilla-León Kingdom's Reconquista? Or, perhaps, if one of their Kings is diplomatically-gifted, could they successfully hinder Castilla's incorporation of Asturia and Leon by binding them to Portucalensia through marriage, much akin to how the Castillans bound Aragón to them?
Reagent said:
Yeah, eventual union with the rest of Spain does seem like the most plausible course of events, though I do wonder if the fact that Portucale had a foreign ruling dynasty might give them a better chance of maintaining independence than Castille and Aragon. As for the rest of the post, I agree - Portucale doesn't seem well suited for a large colonial empire.SlyDessertFox said:
I imagine the most likely outcome is Portucale goes the way of Castille and Aragon-eventually they'll be incorporated into Leon and a united Iberian peninsula. If they can remain independent I don't think they can hinder Spanish exploration unless they expand all the way down to Cadiz. I imagine they'll compete with Leon for control over Morocco, and maybe establish a few outposts and small colonies, but I can't see them posing any real competition in global exploration and trade.
As far as the Algarve? Yeah, I don't see that happening. The Algarve and Alentejo regions are far too valuable for Spain (and predecessors) to allow Portucale to take. I see the Tagus river as the hard southern limit of Portuguese expansion.Implied said:
Might Afonso de Burgundy be able to successfully follow his success at Ourique by expanding further south at the expense of the Moors? Perhaps even as far south as the Algarves, if they precede the Castilla-León Kingdom's Reconquista? Or, perhaps, if one of their Kings is diplomatically-gifted, could they successfully hinder Castilla's incorporation of Asturia and Leon by binding them to Portucalensia through marriage, much akin to how the Castillans bound Aragón to them?
Ernak said:
I suspect that the Portucalian state would ally with the Almoravids to ensure their continued existence, but out of pragmatism given how likely Leon would ally with Castile and follow up the independence with an invasion. This could lead to a Portucalian-Almoravid Alliance until the Almohads came. If the invasion were to occur, expect Portucale to be less forgiving to Leon
View attachment 398591
Adamastor said:
I disagree, Portucale would be well positioned to be a big player in the age of colonialism. In addition to geographic location, Portucale would likely have the ports of Lisboa (should be an easy conquest - Norwegians took it only a few decades before Afonso of Burgundy's revolt) and A Coruña (historic ties between Galicia and County of Portucale make union inevitable I imagine, Galicia was always one of the more rebellious parts of Spain). I disagree with @Reagent about the Algarve and Alentejo. Moorish power was already on the decline (Almohads were a paper tiger), and a Portucale strong enough to remain independent is strong enough to take and hold those territories.SlyDessertFox said:
I imagine the most likely outcome is Portucale goes the way of Castille and Aragon-eventually they'll be incorporated into Leon and a united Iberian peninsula. If they can remain independent I don't think they can hinder Spanish exploration unless they expand all the way down to Cadiz. I imagine they'll compete with Leon for control over Morocco, and maybe establish a few outposts and small colonies, but I can't see them posing any real competition in global exploration and trade.
From this position, I imagine that Portucale could colonize Madera and the Azor Islands before Spain. From there, Portucale would be in a strong position to set up a colony in either North or South Antilla. They might even beat the Spanish in circumnavigating Africa.
Redcoat said:
The Portucalians as in independent nation? Now I've seen it all. I really wonder what a nation of people with Russian accented Spanish would be like...Honestly this scenario is rather far fetched, especially them wanked that hard like in @Ernak 's map. I think they'd be limited to at best the Portucalian heartland in Galazia. People getting them all the way to the Targus are too generous with them.
Substrate said:
I think allying with the Muslims would be quite a turnaround for Afonso, as he was actively seeking Papal recognition for his renegade Kingdom. Still, necessity may dictate it...Ernak said:
I suspect that the Portucalian state would ally with the Almoravids to ensure their continued existence, but out of pragmatism given how likely Leon would ally with Castile and follow up the independence with an invasion. This could lead to a Portucalian-Almoravid Alliance until the Almohads came. If the invasion were to occur, expect Portucale to be less forgiving to Leon
View attachment 398591
Woah, slow down there buddy. The area that made up the County of Portucale is an absolute backwater in modern Spain (and was back then). They aren't taking large chunks of Iberia, much less starting huge colonies in Antilla. Small outposts in Morocco as someone previously mentioned are probably the absolute limit of what they are capable of.Adamastor said:
I disagree, Portucale would be well positioned to be a big player in the age of colonialism. In addition to geographic location, Portucale would likely have the ports of Lisboa (should be an easy conquest - Norwegians took it only a few decades before Afonso of Burgundy's revolt) and A Coruña (historic ties between Galicia and County of Portucale make union inevitable I imagine, Galicia was always one of the more rebellious parts of Spain). I disagree with @Reagent about the Algarve and Alentejo. Moorish power was already on the decline (Almohads were a paper tiger), and a Portucale strong enough to remain independent is strong enough to take and hold those territories.
From this position, I imagine that Portucale could colonize Madera and the Azor Islands before Spain. From there, Portucale would be in a strong position to set up a colony in either North or South Antilla. They might even beat the Spanish in circumnavigating Africa.
Yeah, even if an independent Portucale clearly isn't going to be a major power of any sort, that doesn't mean the scenario still isn't interesting. What do you guys envision the economy of Portucale looking like? It seems evident that fishing would be an important component.Redcoat said:
The Portucalians as in independent nation? Now I've seen it all. I really wonder what a nation of people with Russian accented Spanish would be like...Honestly this scenario is rather far fetched, especially them wanked that hard like in @Ernak 's map. I think they'd be limited to at best the Portucalian heartland in Galazia. People getting them all the way to the Targus are too generous with them.
Ernak said:
Oh, yeah, I missed his attempts to gain recognition, but maybe if he fails, he could try and ally the Moors. But still this was during the Crusades and anti-Muslim sentiment was at an all time high.Substrate said:
I think allying with the Muslims would be quite a turnaround for Afonso, as he was actively seeking Papal recognition for his renegade Kingdom. Still, necessity may dictate it...
Well granted, I suspected that the Leonese would be in a revanchist sentiment and could ally with the Castilians to retake Leone, but you make a point. I might've gave them too much land for them to handleRedcoat said:
The Portucalians as in independent nation? Now I've seen it all. I really wonder what a nation of people with Russian accented Spanish would be like...Honestly this scenario is rather far fetched, especially them wanked that hard like in @Ernak 's map. I think they'd be limited to at best the Portucalian heartland in Galazia. People getting them all the way to the Targus are too generous with them.
Mercantile, as Portucale was just independent, so they could try and gain profits for their fledgling kingdom.Substrate said:
Yeah, even if an independent Portucale clearly isn't going to be a major power of any sort, that doesn't mean the scenario still isn't interesting. What do you guys envision the economy of Portucale looking like? It seems evident that fishing would be an important component.
Implied said:
Wine production would most likely be a mainstay of the economy as well, considering the area of Portucale has some excellent wineries and as an independent nation it would suffer greatly from having very little in the way of natural resources to benefit from.Substrate said:
Yeah, even if an independent Portucale clearly isn't going to be a major power of any sort, that doesn't mean the scenario still isn't interesting. What do you guys envision the economy of Portucale looking like? It seems evident that fishing would be an important component.
Reagent said:
I like this idea a lot! Portucale does strike me as an area that could be known for its wine production.Implied said:
Wine production would most likely be a mainstay of the economy as well, considering the area of Portucale has some excellent wineries and as an independent nation it would suffer greatly from having very little in the way of natural resources to benefit from.
Since I had a little bit of free time, I made this map of what the Wine regions of Portucale could look like (I know there was some disagreement over what the final frontiers of Portucale would look like, but I think Galicia to the Tagus is a good compromise)
[Map Below]
SabahRemorse said:
An English superpower: England industrializes after conquering the British Isles
dajjal1423 said:
England-wanks are a particular brand of annoying to me. It's an underdog story, but one which stretches the bounds of plausibility.
England is a peripheral economy of a peripheral economy, globally speaking. England would need some serious help in the late Interregnum period possibly as early as the ninth century. You'd need Englishmen controlling the English economy, but Hanseatic and Italian merchants held sway and continued to hold sway until 1060 BS, when Edward VIII expelled them during the Spanish Restoration. England historically has been a backwater of a backwater.
To put it another way, England has to invest in water transport, something that's a natural feature of Bengal. The investment needed is not there in English history, as wool trade could satisfy the economic needs of the English crown. The incentive to grow the economy away from raw materials is not there, and there are many forces in England which have historically pushed against it: The Church, the nobility, as well as the peasantry who were very unhappy with the processes which created a modern industrialized state in England. Foreign powers in the region had a vested interest in keeping the English down even if they took the right steps, and the fractious nature of Europe means some power was moving to suppress rivals.
The Bengali Industrial revolution arose from a unique set of circumstances, from the unification of the global market, the convergence of the Islamic and Indian engineering technologies leading to the introduction of water power to the cotton industry, and the interactive social structures of Mughal Bengal, just to skim the surface. The social change created by the Industrialization of Bengal was decently managed because of the dispersion of power amongst society. European upheavals upon the introduction of industrial modes of production mean whatever state would come out on the other side would not resemble anything we know in Europe today, let alone resemble their predecessors politically.
MSG: NHC: Antesian state
MSG: Would it be possible to have an independent Antesian state appear and survive to the modern era? Let's say with no changepoint before 1500 or so.
MSG: What is Antesia?
MSG: Artemisia is your friend. Antesians were an ethnic group in the Suomic empire which essentially have been totally assimilated since the 2400s. Don't know how OP thought this up.
MSG: Sorry, I didn't think they were that obscure. In Taurida they are taught in schools as an early example of Grecian trade contacts.
MSG: I think I saw this concept somewhere before.
MSG: I honestly don't see how you get a handful of tribes to survive as a state in one of the most hotly contested areas of the world. Are Rhomania and Suomia just going to stop going at each other for a few hundred years to allow the Antesians to get settled?
MSG: It would really have to be as some sort of client state, but that would inevitably be very short-lived considering Rhomania's tendency to grab and settle everything in sight...
MSG: Aren't you Rhomanian?
MSG: 2769 =/= 2400s
MSG: suggesting Rhomania's policy is actually all that different now
MSG: To return to the topic at hand, I think the best shot at this is if Silla wins the Suomic-Sillan war of 2348, to an extent which the Suomic Empire falls apart then and there. As Rhomania was still tangling with Teotihuacania at that point, there's an opportunity for breakaway states to survive in the vacuum.
MSG: 'tangling' is a very euphemistic way to put it lol
MSG: remind me, what was the last time Rhomania invaded one of her neighbors?
MSG: but again were there really many of them left by then?
MSG: Found it! There's a book called the Atlas of Imaginary Places which covers this idea. The changepoint isn't clear from the map, though.
MSG: you would if Silla wasn't there to stop you
MSG: can you post the map?
MSG: yeah I'll go ahead and scan it
MSG: stop wasting my chunks with your political trash
MSG: Is that legal?
MSG: This site is hosted in Vedia, no one really cares
MSG: is that true?
MSG: well, a lot of posters do seem to treat bull like it was holy
MSG: transfer link: [removed]
MSG: It's about five mil
MSG: zeus' beard it better be interesting for five mil
MSG: Is the cable really that bad in Taurida?
MSG: The cable's that bad anywhere not touching the Mediterranean. Don't get the site censored while I'm gone.
>CABLE TRANSFER START
>CABLE TRANSFER COMPLETE
>RECONNECTING
MSG: you're willing to slaughter the Embera wholesale for a warm-water port
MSG: that was literally 400 years ago
MSG: sorry but this map is kind of shit
MSG: but your consul has never apologized for it or even acknowledged it
MSG: because it was literally 400 years ago
MSG: What about the Bodans, by the way? You all aren't exactly clean either.
MSG: What's wrong with it?
MSG: classic Rhomanian deflection
MSG: I'm Sogdian, but thanks for the racist assumption
MSG: can't you people fight about this somewhere else?
MSG: not my fault the mods tolerate barbarians on the site
MSG: yeah so first off what is 'slavonshyna' and what are these moon runes?
MSG: 'Slavs' were the Antesians' name for themselves - as for the lettering, idk, a lot of the book is like that - sort of faux-alternate alphabet
MSG: if anyone is a 'barbarian', it's the people who were riding horses around the desert while we were inventing paper
MSG: these borders make absolutely no sense whatsoever, and where do these placenames come from? (not even touching the oh-so-edgy standard)
MSG: well, like I said, the changepoint isn't clear. it would probably have to be real early -somewhere between 500 and 1000
MSG: it just strikes me as very casual - sort of like a nationalists' wank, if there were any antesians left to make bad maps
MSG: lol, the cinians invented paper, you just conquered them
MSG: look, it's mass market newhistory, what do you expect. I didn't endorse it, just said I saw it
MSG: fair enough I guess
MSG: actually, the archaeological record suggests the Cahokians invented paper as early as 200 PUC, but this has been suppressed by racist historians
MSG: I think I'm done for the day anyways - wasted too many chunks receiving this blather
MSG: yeah, someone needs to get control of this system. where's CahuillaUrsa when you need him?
MSG: talk to you all later
>DISCONNECTING