Also probably didn't help that his business interests were being effected by the war.
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
Charming fellow, all that suffering and horror and money is still his guiding star...
But would there even be a command for him? I mean with the Commonwealth looking to remain a going concern in the Thailand/Indochina area and the Allies also likely to hold onto larger parts of the Dutch East Indies, there likely isn't going to be a SWP theatre. Equally, London isn't going to ax Wavell just to put McArthur in command.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
The question of what to do with MacArthur after the fall of the Philippines, or more correctly the surrender of the besieged American/Philippine forces in the Bataan peninsular, and his evacuation. Remember the reason that the remaining forces in the Philippines surrendered was that the Japanese forced the commander of the American Philippine forces in the Bataan pocket to surrender on behalf of all forces in the region, and not just those directly under his command. Had the Americans had some foresight, they would have appointed a separate commander for the forces outside Bataan, who could have refused the surrender and continued the fight against the Japanese, while ether withdrawing from the Philippines, or organising a resistance movement. As for MacArthur, what to do with him ITTL, is very much a question for the Americans, any overall military commander in Australia will be British or Australian, as with a much reduced threat, and the need to coordinate with the Anglo Dutch forces in the Malay/Singapore DEI region. Plus the almost complete absence of the USN in the region, and an ever increasing RN, RAN, RNZN and Dutch Navy, it would make no sense to appoint a failed American Army commander to the position of being Supreme Allied Commander. MacArthur is a problem for the American President and the Democratic Party, who are going to have to deal with him.
RR.
This exactly. This won't stop him from clamouring for a command, but the Commonwealth/Dutch can and hopefully will tell him where to shove it.
Not to mention as a "failure" (especially if he "ducked out" while others are still holding the line or even rolling the enemy back elsewhere) FDR can simply bury him due to an already ruined rep.
Totally agree. Without the need to suck up to the Americans to get forces to defend Australia, ( I could have phrased that more diplomatically but i chose not to), as in OTL, and the more successful Commonwealth response to the Japanese onslaught, Curtin would not be so dismissive of British support and surrendered Australian control over the Local area to Mac Arthur. And of course ITTL Churchill's desire to decide where Australian Divisions would be sent, against the wishes of their own Government, are not so controversial. Well, yes they would be, but not as much. Without Burma being threatened, the desire to divert them to Rangoon would not happen. And with Singapore holding, then the desire to bring them home to Australia will not be as great, So sending them to Singapore is a good result.
So what can Dugout Doug expect when he is told to leave Bataan, due to the pressure on FDR by MacArthur's supporters?
Australia is not the fall back position of OTL. It is still a rather backwater area, rather than the springboard for an eventual allied advance back to the Philippines.. The main action is taking place in Malaya and Borneo and DEI. Hardly areas the USA want to intrude into. National sovereignty and all that! So what advantage does having Dugout Doug provide? Where can he be sent? The Solomons is not yet a vital area and may not even get to that point. In any case, as a place surrounded by water with many islands, it is more likely to be a Navy command. The Philippines is an American problem so the Americans will need to work out how to regain. The question is how? And with what forces? The rest of the Allies are fighting their own battles. The USA will have to figure out how to take back the Philippines on their own. After all, if the Commonwealth and the Dutch can successfully defend their own territory or at least hold the Japanese from advancing too far, surely it be expected that the mighty USA, under such a great general as Dougout Doug can reclaim the Philippines in the next 12 months.
PNG is not yet a problem area. Japanese forces are being drawn to Malaya/DEI like bees to honey. It is not inconceivable that the many SNLF will be redirected to the DEI. So no real threat down the Solomons Island Chain. In fact, why would they? The main threat to Japanese war aims is in Malaya and DEI. Cutting off American supply lines to Australia does not help the immediate problem.
And what aid does America have available to send to Australia? A few NG Divisions and some fighter Sdns. And how long before they are deployed into Java?
So what does Dougout Doug arrive in Australia (presuming that is where he is evacuated to!) to find? Bugger all!
And if he is evacuated to Singapore or Java, well, what can he offer? Command, eventually, of a few undertrained and ill equipped NG Divisions, vs the numerous battle hardened and successful Commonwealth Divisions and Corps, run by people who have been doing this job since 1939? The Bataan gang would find themselves well out of their depth. And to Dougout Doug's disgust, he would find himself merely a small frog in a big pond. (yes, frog! Croaking all the way!) Nervous breakdown as everyone ignores his proclamations from the Mount, anyone?
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Derek Pullem
Donor
I don't want to spoil all the Doug bashing but right now the American and Filipino forces in the Bataan peninsula have fought the Japanese to a standstill and are even advancing in some places.
Singapore hasn't fallen, the Japanese are in desperate need of reinforcements in Malaya and Dutch East Indies and the ABDA submarines are still present in force.
I can see Bataan being parked for a while by the Japanese whilst the y try to sort out higher value objectives.
If they take too long then Guadalcanal is butterflied and the Marines might go directly to the Philippines (although probably not Bataan)
Singapore hasn't fallen, the Japanese are in desperate need of reinforcements in Malaya and Dutch East Indies and the ABDA submarines are still present in force.
I can see Bataan being parked for a while by the Japanese whilst the y try to sort out higher value objectives.
If they take too long then Guadalcanal is butterflied and the Marines might go directly to the Philippines (although probably not Bataan)
I think with this we should discount the US Subamrines to a degree until they get working torpedoes.
I like them, especially with mustard. Heating them would be an abomination
Agreeing with you here.
Imperial Japan loooved it's intensely complicated Rube-Goldbergesque Operational Plans where the positioning of every division has been worked out in two-week increments for the next six months, operating under the assumption that 'delays' and 'Enemy Disruption' are non-factors for those possessed of sufficient Bushido Spirit.
This was driven, in part, by their lack of divisions to go around, as well as shipping to get them around.
So a Bataan that's (very rudely) refusing to confirm to Japanese scheduling by continuing to hold out presents Imperial Japan with something of a difficulty.
The immediate response, presumably, will be to order the local commander to Bushido harder and just take the damn place. Shockingly, this will likely meet with little success. Artillery fires, being the honourless dogs that they are, take no heed of Bushido Spirit.
Which leaves the IJA with, essentially, two options: Allocate more resources to storm Bataan now, or contain it until some vague point in the future where more resources are made available. Option one, however, involves further disrupting the Rube-Goldberg machine. Further, Imperial Japan loooved indefinitely postponing things rather than outright cancelling them. Option #02 allows them to indefinitely postpone the capture of Bataan, rather than having to outright cancel anything by yanking the resources necessary to storm Bataan away from something else.
Now, the 'contain and wait' option could be combined with a naval blockade to further isolate Bataan and attrit the forces supplying it... But the IJN was really not doctrinally equipped to do that. (And would also involve coordinating with the Navy, and... Yeah. No.)
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That's going to happen rather earlier than OTL. Of course, that makes me wonder, how difficult would it be to make British torpedoes (which are also used by the Dutch) work in American submarines?
I could see him claiming that his valiant defence of Bataan kept the Japanese stuck and allowed for Commonwealth/DEI forces to hold, which makes him entitled to theatre command.
At which point he's told "No, we need you to focus on holding Bataan ready for a reinvasion...soonish."
The British can calmly point out that kit was they who were hurting the Japanese enough that they had to pull forces from other fronts to keep that front from collapsing.
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