Goering's Europe

[Kongzilla]

Maybe he convinces himself that if he keeps on the meds he will be the end of germany

 

[Nietzsche]

If Hitler died before World War 2, their wouldn't be a war(at least not in Europe), if Hitler died during the war, he would call a truce as soon as things look grim.

No, there'd be a war. There has to be a war. As far as the mainstream German is concerned, the Fatherland has unfinished business.

As far as his treatment of the Jews go, I think the worse he would do is tax them harshly and treat them as second class citizens. They would flee the country out of protest/frustration rather than fear. He wasn't naturally anti-semitic(well at least not to genocidal levels).

You are quite right. Goering was no more anti-semetic than most Germans of his era. He certainly didn't like them, but there's a whole lot of ground you need to cover to get from "I don't like em' jews" to "Die, you kike faggot devils!"

That Goering was forced to confront sobriety by his jail keepers. A Goering with a steady supply of quacks for prescriptions is a entirely different man.

Prevent his injury in 1923 and you won't have the addict in the first place.

 

[Tongera]

Prevent his injury in 1923 and you won't have the addict in the first place.

Was Goering actually compotent before his addiction?

 

[Mr.J]

Was Goering actually compotent before his addiction?

He was an air ace IIRC, doesn't mean he was an administrative genius but he wasn't a chump.

 

[M79]

Change your timeline a bit. Have Hitler die shortly after the fall of France when Germany is riding high and hitting Britain like a hammer. Goering comes to power while Himmler and Heydrich have a mysterious "accident", possibly together for poetic justice. Hess, Goering, and Boermann form a triumverate with Goering as president, Boermann as chancellor, and Hess as party leader. Germany sues for peace in exchange for some concessions (using Vichy France as a sit-in for de Gaulle's government), ruling a stable empire in central Europe for some time. Financial crisis looming the German government adopts a British model and revalues a currency with much of Europe as de facto colonies. Italy fare well as it benefits from German technology and industry while most of the rest of German-dominated Europe suffers a brain drain, becoming largely agricultural.

 

[Richter von Manthofen]

Was Goering actually compotent before his addiction?

Leaders don't have to be competent - they just need competent advisors - AND they should listen to them...

As I have to deal with "politicans" on a regular base I know firsthand that even the bright ones (few they are) usually don't know the tiny bits of the trade that "make it work"

As soon as a leader meddles in the details the "product" gets broken before you can use it.

 

[Snaut]

I don't think Goering would've pushed for the annexation of Bohemia into the Reich.

How would this reluctance influence attempts to mend the economy?

Satisfied with the Sudetenland, he'd likely turn eyes onto Poland. And with Poland...I think he could get away with a short war for Danzig, if only because in the minds of most Brits and their diplomats, Austria & West Prussia were "Germany's Backyard" so to speak.

Seizing all of Bohemia was a blatant act of aggression with no historical motivation or reasoning. Austria is German, so we shall let them be in Germany. The Sudetenland was majority German, thus we shall let them join with Germany. West Prussia is a little shakier. They had owned it for a few hundred ears, and lost it mere decades ago.

It's something of a stretch, but it's a ludicrous demand. Danzig proper, however, is no contest. It's overwhelmingly German, has been so for countless years, and wanted in.

IMO it would require a huge lot of luck. IOTL Germany had antagonized Britain and France by the end of 1938 to the extent that its first significant post-Munich move amounted to crossing the line, causing Britain to start handing guarantees out left and right. Hitler got away with central Czechia, but that was after an extremely rapid occupation which could not be executed against Poland. And the problem with provoking a crisis over the corridor which cannot be quickly ended is that it gives Britain time to react unfavorably. A better strategy would probably be to occupy Danzig and see what happens next, as that move won’t annoy Britain as much as the vassalization of a large country.

Besides, it's good for British foreign policy (…) a counter-weight to France…

This doesn't make sense. France only desired to be left alone, and at the time of Munich Germany was well on the way to surpassing it in strength.

No, there'd be a war. There has to be a war. As far as the mainstream German is concerned, the Fatherland has unfinished business.

Did it really? An example: Hitler was trying to get chummy with Poland from the very beginning right until 1939, but even though he basically signed away the corridor and arguably Danzig too in one of his first international treaties the German nation failed to rise up in righteous anger against this foul betrayal.

 

[Michele]

But the Nazi 'plan' was a massive military build-up. Whatever else Goering might say he'll have to stay very revanchist to stay in the saddle. Which means, at the least arming Germany. That is expensive and isn't being run well.

Very true. Now, who was doing that bad job? The Four-Year-Plan Office, a Cabinet-level thing that had essentially taken over the Ministry of Economics. And who headed that office? Oh... right... Goering. So much for his capabilities.

 

[Badshah]

How would this reluctance influence attempts to mend the economy?



IMO it would require a huge lot of luck. IOTL Germany had antagonized Britain and France by the end of 1938 to the extent that its first significant post-Munich move amounted to crossing the line, causing Britain to start handing guarantees out left and right. Hitler got away with central Czechia, but that was after an extremely rapid occupation which could not be executed against Poland. And the problem with provoking a crisis over the corridor which cannot be quickly ended is that it gives Britain time to react unfavorably. A better strategy would probably be to occupy Danzig and see what happens next, as that move won’t annoy Britain as much as the vassalization of a large country.



This doesn't make sense. France only desired to be left alone, and at the time of Munich Germany was well on the way to surpassing it in strength.



Did it really? An example: Hitler was trying to get chummy with Poland from the very beginning right until 1939, but even though he basically signed away the corridor and arguably Danzig too in one of his first international treaties the German nation failed to rise up in righteous anger against this foul betrayal.

Yeah, Poland was being courted by Germany for a while in a bid to have the Russians in check.

 

[Thoresby]

Very true. Now, who was doing that bad job? The Four-Year-Plan Office, a Cabinet-level thing that had essentially taken over the Ministry of Economics. And who headed that office? Oh... right... Goering. So much for his capabilities.

Actually he wasn't doing that bad a job of getting Germany ready for an early war; consider the enormous strides the Wehrmacht made from 1933 to 1939. Where Goering, the Four Year Plan Office and the entire German government fell down was in the value for money and fiscal sustainability areas, but that wasn't incompetence, that was following Hitlers instructions to the letter. War was coming soon and Germany had to be ready for it, no matter the cost. It didn't matter that a project could be done for half the price and twice as well by 1941, it had to be done by tomorrow. By most rational standards its a dumb way to run a country but then Hitler had his own rationality. In his mind the German economy was never meant to pay for the pre-war rearmament, the plan was always to pay the bills by looting the rest of Europe.
That's why I take the peaceful Goering concept with a pinch of salt, while he wasn't as aggressive as Hitler (apart from Genghis Khan nobody was) he was fully aware of the state of the German economy and that they had gone past the point of no return some time in early 1938. Post Munich it was either a war and mass looting of Europe or bankruptcy, there was no option C. That's why Germany occupied Bohemia and Moravia, they needed the gold and foreign exchange to keep the train on the tracks and while reoccupying West Prussia would tick nationalist boxes it wouldn't fix the economic problems Germany faced. For that they needed to loot a few countries.

 

[Michele]

Actually he wasn't doing that bad a job of getting Germany ready for an early war; consider the enormous strides the Wehrmacht made from 1933 to 1939. Where Goering, the Four Year Plan Office and the entire German government fell down was in the value for money and fiscal sustainability areas, but that wasn't incompetence, that was following Hitlers instructions to the letter. War was coming soon and Germany had to be ready for it, no matter the cost.

In other words, yes it was a bad job. Doing something "at all costs" when you are actually unable to pay those cost is a bad job, regardless of what the objective is, because it will bankrupt you - unless you can use the outcome of the job to forestall the bankrupt. In other words, those saying that a war was unavoidable at that point would be right.

Schacht is the man who did a good job. He collaborated in the scam as long as that was somewhat sustainable. When the crunch came, he preferred giving up his position rather than accepting mad orders from Hitler. Goering did the opposite. Left without his master, I think he'll go along with the master's plan.

Alternatively, Goering does not launch a major war. Germany first stops paying its foreign debts, since the currency reserves are empty and so the gold coffers. That sparks a major crisis as the factories needing the foreign-supplied raw materials shutter. Orders to the arms factories have to be curtailed. These two factors together bring unemployment, which can't be solved by recruiting more soldiers or hiring more uniformed thugs, because the state can't afford that. The arms factories try to cash all the MeFo bills at the same time, and there goes another disaster. Then in 1940, the first state bonds go unpaid, which causes the predictable panic. Germany defaults. You can imagine the rest.

 

[Thoresby]

In other words, yes it was a bad job. Doing something "at all costs" when you are actually unable to pay those cost is a bad job, regardless of what the objective is, because it will bankrupt you - unless you can use the outcome of the job to forestall the bankrupt. In other words, those saying that a war was unavoidable at that point would be right.

I have to disagree, Goering and the Four Year Plan Office did a very good job of fulfilling their instructions, they were dumb instructions based on an immoral world view but they fulfilled their objectives of getting Germany ready for war "no matter the cost" and "no matter the long term consequences". The Four Year Plan was a bit like the initial phase of Operation Barbarossa in that while it was well executed, it was a mad plan with unattainable objectives that saw Germany destroyed in the end. But it was well executed.

The question is what would Goering do if he is the man in charge rather than the man carrying out Hitler's mad schemes and I personally think he would act "rationally" which in this case is to gamble and loot Poland and Bohemia in order to pay the bills; because that's a better bet than going bankrupt.

 

[Mikestone8]

The question is what would Goering do if he is the man in charge rather than the man carrying out Hitler's mad schemes and I personally think he would act "rationally" which in this case is to gamble and loot Poland and Bohemia in order to pay the bills; because that's a better bet than going bankrupt.

But would he have to do them in the same order?

Had Hitler gone for Poland directly after Munich, his chances of getting away with it would have been better. GB and France had not given any guarantee, and Poland was in bad odour for having joiined in the carveup of Czechoslvakia.

When Poland was invaded, Prague could have been grabbed at the same time as a sideshow.

 

[Nietzsche]

Was Goering actually compotent before his addiction?

He was an air ace IIRC, doesn't mean he was an administrative genius but he wasn't a chump.

Not just an air ace. He was von Richthofen right-hand-man. Then there was how he ran the Prussian Police. Frighteningly efficient and brutal.

Now, the reason Goering would have done far better than Hitler is that, well, Goering was willing to delegate power. Hitler refused to do it, preferring his underlings to squabble amongst themselves. Goering was also not remotely as arbitrary as Hitler was.

 

[Rich Rostrom]

No, there'd be a war. There has to be a war. As far as the mainstream German is concerned, the Fatherland has unfinished business.

As far as the mainstream German is concerned, war is a catastrophe to be avoided if at all possible.

Germany lost enormous numbers killed in in World War I, and the country was left bankrupt. This despite knocking Russia out of the war and having France on the ropes. The British blockade led to severe food shortages and could not be challenged, even when Germany had a powerful battle fleet - which is gone. Lots of people have been speculating or bragging about the devastation of aerial bombing. Most Germans don't want to test Goering's boasts about air defense.

But in 1939 Germany, the mainstream German did what Hitler wanted. After the dazzling victories of 1939-1940, Germans became enthusiastic, but they weren't, earlier.

Goering is no pacificist, and might resort to war for limited goals - but he's not a gambler with a messiah complex. Aut caesar aut nihil is not his motto.

 

[lionhead]

I think we are forgetting the fact that Germany, after 1936 became terrifyingly strong. That was the course Hitler put it in simply for the purpose of rearmament and the idea that a war will follow shortly that will eliminate all debts. They didn't know the future like we do. Goring couldn't revert that process i think, not without causing huge national uproar and collapsing Germany back into another big crisis(civil war perhaps even). So, knowing how powerfull Germany was in that time and seeing that Goring was just as arrogant and fascist as Hitler was Goring would certainly at least considder a war with the UK. Then, you have the generals. They wanted just the same as Hitler wanted, revenge. Perhaps Goring couldn't pull off the Munich Agreement without fire but an invasion of Poland would be a step Goring might just take, simply for the believe in the German supremacy over Poland and France.

Of course another interesting part of the puzzle is Italy and Japan. They where also both set for war, only with Germany backing them of course. Would Goring let his allies down like that? Would he handover potential allies like Hungary and Finland to the Soviets? Didn't he see a pontetial in Japan and Italy as allies to defeat the UK and France?

 

[omi]

or go to this link https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=231829 really intresting

 

[Nietzsche]

As far as the mainstream German is concerned, war is a catastrophe to be avoided if at all possible.

Germany lost enormous numbers killed in in World War I, and the country was left bankrupt. This despite knocking Russia out of the war and having France on the ropes. The British blockade led to severe food shortages and could not be challenged, even when Germany had a powerful battle fleet - which is gone. Lots of people have been speculating or bragging about the devastation of aerial bombing. Most Germans don't want to test Goering's boasts about air defense.

I didn't mean to say the people wanted war, I meant to say that the people expected/hoped/such that they'll be able to get back what was theirs.

But in 1939 Germany, the mainstream German did what Hitler wanted. After the dazzling victories of 1939-1940, Germans became enthusiastic, but they weren't, earlier.

Goering is no pacificist, and might resort to war for limited goals - but he's not a gambler with a messiah complex. Aut caesar aut nihil is not his motto.

That is precisely my point. Goring, being much more cautious than Hitler, would've likely spaced out his territorial ambitions. He knew that Germany could reign in Bohemia without annexing it or otherwise destroying the state. That opens prospects for the Corridor, something the British and French would likely be unwilling to fight for.

 

[HeavyWeaponsGuy]

Hard one depends when he comes into power 1940 or 1941. By both points many Jewish scientists had fled the country and had been treated pretty rotten by the regime. Funding is also an issue, the Manhatten project was incredibly expensive and I don't know if the Nazi's can afford it. The Germans were also notorious for having several teams working on a project which created competition for what limited resources there was (eg. Jet projects) as opposed to a unified effort. Even then, IIRC (someone correct me if I'm wrong) but the German atomic program was going down the wrong path?

Overall I'd say a Nazi atomic bomb is probably impossible.

The German atomic program didn't have much of a chance to begin with (as an absolutely gob-stopping amount of the Weimar-era scientists associated with nuclear physics jumped ship to the British or the Americans), the only source of uranium the Germans had was in Bohemia which for most of the Nazi occupation was crawling with the Czech resistance (and not some piddly two-bit operation like the Dutch Resistance, but the real deal with elements of the former Czech Army, one of the finest in Europe).

The idea of nuclear physics and other things as being Jewish sciences was overblown and ultimately the Nazis of all people managed to realize that the people advocating in favor of Aryanizing the sciences were all complete loonies, however the issue of brain drain was already very strongly present for nuclear physics in Germany. This gets into the larger issue of how "Nazi" science was almost exclusively derived from the Weimar generation of scientists, but suffice to say nuclear physics was a field that was hit very hard by the flight of prominent thinkers and innovators in that particular field of study. Heisenberg, while certainly a brilliant mind, had some very serious flaws in his reactor design. It was never tested, but it was believed that the Heisenberg nuclear reactor would have done anything from fizzle out to go into complete nuclear meltdown had it actually been used.

You're pretty much... to be punny, right on the money with regards to funding a program. At one point the American government was quite seriously considering using the silver reserves at Fort Knox to provide material for the Manhattan Project, and we have to recall that the Manhattan Project despite its complete secrecy was a project the size of the US automobile industry. The Germans between rearming their treaty-limited military and building several things, including an air force, entirely from scratch and then afterward having to devote everything to a massive war machine rolling across Europe, never had a window of opportunity where they could have realistically devoted the same level of resources to a project as the United States or later the Soviet Union. Even the British with their own substantial amounts of capital and scientific resources could not do a project on their own, and instead threw their lot in with the American project.

 

[Father Maryland]

No, there'd be a war. There has to be a war. As far as the mainstream German is concerned, the Fatherland has unfinished business.


You are quite right. Goering was no more anti-semetic than most Germans of his era. He certainly didn't like them, but there's a whole lot of ground you need to cover to get from "I don't like em' jews" to "Die, you kike faggot devils!"


Prevent his injury in 1923 and you won't have the addict in the first place.

Err didn't Goering chair the bloody Wansee conference?

Not just an air ace. He was von Richthofen right-hand-man. Then there was how he ran the Prussian Police. Frighteningly efficient and brutal.

Now, the reason Goering would have done far better than Hitler is that, well, Goering was willing to delegate power. Hitler refused to do it, preferring his underlings to squabble amongst themselves. Goering was also not remotely as arbitrary as Hitler was.

And the second Goering took control of the Flying Circus he demonstrated his idiocy and general incompetency in areas of command.