I do wonder, with Britain doing decidedly better, will Britain feel the need to supply as much to the Soviets once American aide starts to pick up? Might the decision be made that the further east the Germans are, the better it is for Britain (and America) once troops are landed in Europe?
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
Derek Pullem
Donor
It will be interesting to see how the Soviets react to the smorgasbord of tanks supplied for their inspection. IOTL they focussed on the T-34 which compared to the Valiant is less well armoured and carries a heavier gun. Here the Valiant has shown itself to be the equal of current German tanks even with its less than perfect gun.
Survivability in combat is the driver for the British - will the Soviets continue with their "disposable" attitude to tank crews or will they start to consider uparmouring their tanks at the expense of the gun calibre?
Survivability in combat is the driver for the British - will the Soviets continue with their "disposable" attitude to tank crews or will they start to consider uparmouring their tanks at the expense of the gun calibre?
The big difference (to OTL) is the speed. The Valiant is something like half as fast (or more) again as the Valentine was, and the Valiant*, while having less armour, is faster again.
It's not armour thickness, but turret ring size that is the major limiter of gun calibre.
I very much doubt it. Until very, very late in the day, the war is unlikely to feel like such a foregone conclusion that the WAllies don't have to prioritise winning it over setting up for the perfect post-war. There might be specific decisions made to cut off potential Soviet advances (e.g. if Churchill's feeling really confident, an intervention in the Balkans, or a faster drive across the upper Rhine into Bavaria) but not a general policy of keeping the Soviets just barely alive - after all, they might fuck it up again and actually lose...
Derek Pullem
Donor
True but if you uparmoured a T-34 to 75 mm like the Valiant you wouldn't have the same tank. Essentially will the Soviets continue to spam out T-34s or upgrade early to something like the T-34-85 / T-43
They did try, but they were heavily constrained by the existing components. For T-34 the biggest issue was roadwheel rim life which was already problematic on the 76mm version since weight rose from 27 to over 30 tonnes. They did not find the sweet spot until T-44/54 more or less.
T-43 and T-34-85M both increased hull armor to 75mm to make it immune to PaK 40, but by the time they were ready they wanted 90mm to resist the 75mm L70, which just wasn't going to work on either tank.
Arguably they could have pushed for 60mm to be resistant to PaK 40, but the Soviets weren't thinking in incremental terms at the time.
In any case, Valiant is only resistant to PaK 40 too, so same deal.
And the Soviets tried hard to fit more powerful guns, having a bazillion parallel gun and turret developments to exploit different existing parts and mounts (F-34 , ZiS-5, U-11 breeches...). This wasn't easy, the USSR still had a relatively new heavy industry so tooling was not always present and the invasion disrupted it even further.
Still, the Soviets are commendable as probably the most creative realistic engineers in WW2 (Germans are the most creative unrealistic ones with Wunderwaffen), with the British second (a 0.8*bazillion parallel guns and tank projects).
What if they have a TMI - spend a day in a coma and them wake with a slightly different personality
That works sometimes in RL so......
Expect a litany of Russian grumps about narrow tracks, finicky engines, weak guns, poor winterization and excessive maintenance schedules. While they may be privately impressed by the armour, build quality, transmissions and crew ergonomics, don't expect them to say so.
Individually:
- The Tetrarch is hopeless for anything more than scouting, but is clearly better than the T-60, and they're still working the bugs out of the T-70 prototype
- The A15 is a BT-7 with better armour but less speed and a single-purpose gun. If it manages to get through the trials without breaking down, it may find a place as a drop-in replacement in the cavalry units.
- The Matilda II is like nothing the Soviets have seen - small, slow and poorly armed, but able to laugh at anything short of heavy AT or direct-fire artillery. The Red Army doesn't really need an assault tank but may see the value of a mobile pillbox.
- The Valiant I is a KV-1 crossed with a PzIII but given the single-purpose AT gun the British seem to favour. Compared to Soviet designs, the crews will likely appreciate the armour, the reliability and the internal space, not so much the weak gun and reduced mobility.
- The Valiant I* is a similar idea to the KV-1S - reducing the armour on a heavy tank to gain mobility. Like the KV-1S, it suffers from being neither one thing nor the other (also the petrol engine is a negative). The tank most likely to get a 76mm conversion.
None of these are likely to distract the Soviets from their focus on the T-34 - it exists, it's good enough, it can be produced domestically in large quantities and the Soviet system is heavily geared to mass output of a single design. A few hundred British stopgaps aren't going to change the need to get T-34s to the battlefield by the thousand.
One thing that might come from the Soviet inspection of British (and German) tank designs is a move to a three-man turret on the later T-34-76 models (OTL, this had to wait for the T-34-85).
marathag
Banned
Difference from OTL, that Soviets find that most British tanks are decent and thereby usable in combat, rather than abysmal on the whole, besides the Valentine.
ITTL, half of the British Tanks are as reliable as the American Models.
Tanks that are more reliable than domestic models, while being decently armored, have a place on the Eastern Front.
Rather than the 'LOL, no thanks. Please do not ship more of these to us' after testing the Matilda II and Churchill III
Pretty much the above more reliable tanks will be a major help, while they work to both move and set up their own factories again behind the Caucuses, will a welcome addition to the Russian's won't change much from OTL except probably give them some idea's on cold weather setups for armour on the British side, also though with the War pretty much ending in North Africa it's going to give the British breathing space.
Entirely possible, the difference is that TTL they're seeing the Valiant about a year earlier than they saw the Sherman OTL. For example, the new-design 1942 turret for the T-34 hasn't been introduced yet. Then again, they had a good look at the PzIII & PzIV even earlier (OTL and TTL) and it didn't change their minds.
OTL, the Soviets might not have been thrilled with the Matilda II, but it didn't stop them taking more than 1,000 of them. At this point (OTL, the Wehrmacht reached the outer defences of Moscow the day after the convoy docked in Archangel), the Red Army is desperate for anything that can move and carry a gun.
They weren't too impressed with the Churchill II (the last gasp of the 2-pdr) when they tested them in mid-1942, but they still took 300 Churchills, mostly 6-pdr armed versions.
Before the analysis below can be correctly made, those capable of an analysis will be worried that the Soviet Union may collapse at some level.
“So British manpower is really low”
“Yup”
“And there’s no way we’ll get an independent liberal bourgeois Poland”
“No”
“And our manpower is so low that we’re likely to face political problems from Communist and Labour servicemen, even aviators, even in secondary theatres”
“Yep”
“But if we ship slightly fewer lorries we get the right to kill more British soldiers, in order to save Soviet lives, just so that we can bleed like the monthlies all the way to Berlin, and we still end up with a Soviet dominated Poland”
“Yes”
"But Soviet manpower?"
"Do you have any problem leaving them so utterly depleted at the end of the war—which has taken their state to breaking point—leaving them only international credibility, but no real capacity to extend their power except by suasion, politics and diplomacy?"
"No actually"
"So you're okay with Soviets bleeding their way to exhaustion to uselessly seize the first place show ribbon of the bloody booby prize of 3 days rape of Berlin?"
"Now that you put it that way; which reminds me, tell the boys down the club that Harris wasted too many public school lads, and burnt too many churches, so he doesn't get a title."
If necessary, reemphasise that it isn't just Communists grumbling in Egypt and India, but loyal labour men.
“So British manpower is really low”
“Yup”
“And there’s no way we’ll get an independent liberal bourgeois Poland”
“No”
“And our manpower is so low that we’re likely to face political problems from Communist and Labour servicemen, even aviators, even in secondary theatres”
“Yep”
“But if we ship slightly fewer lorries we get the right to kill more British soldiers, in order to save Soviet lives, just so that we can bleed like the monthlies all the way to Berlin, and we still end up with a Soviet dominated Poland”
“Yes”
"But Soviet manpower?"
"Do you have any problem leaving them so utterly depleted at the end of the war—which has taken their state to breaking point—leaving them only international credibility, but no real capacity to extend their power except by suasion, politics and diplomacy?"
"No actually"
"So you're okay with Soviets bleeding their way to exhaustion to uselessly seize the first place show ribbon of the bloody booby prize of 3 days rape of Berlin?"
"Now that you put it that way; which reminds me, tell the boys down the club that Harris wasted too many public school lads, and burnt too many churches, so he doesn't get a title."
If necessary, reemphasise that it isn't just Communists grumbling in Egypt and India, but loyal labour men.
13 October 1941. Cairo, Egypt.
allanpcameron
Donor
13 October 1941. Cairo, Egypt.
The forces in the Western Desert were now designated as Eighth Army. The creation of XXX Corps in August had been the final ingredient, with Lieutenant-General O’Connor becoming Army Commander. September saw the arrival of Lieutenant-General Vyvyan Pope as GOC XXX Corps. He had begun working immediately with the three Divisions (2nd Armoured, 4th Indian, 2nd New Zealand) in his command.
WS9B and WS10 Convoys had brought enough Valiant I* tanks to fully re-equip 1st and 22nd Armoured Brigades, and so 2nd Armoured Division had been reconstituted. Instead of a Support Group, 3rd Indian Motor Brigade would continue to be attached, and the Division would have its own Royal Artillery and Engineers attached, along with Signals and all the other parts that make the Division effective.
The 4th Indian Division was once again at full strength and Headquartered in Tobruk. The Greeks had been able to form a complete Brigade to take over from the New Zealanders on Crete. With all three Brigades back together, General Freyberg’s 2nd New Zealand Division were preparing to move forward to Tobruk to join the 4th Indian Division. It was there that 2nd Armoured Division was also preparing to move to. The hold-up was the Valiant I* tanks on WS10 which had arrived at the end of September, to equip 22nd Armoured Brigade were still to be transported to Tobruk.
Lieutenant-Generals O’Connor (GOC 8th Army), Reade Godwin-Austen (GOC XIII) and Vyvyan Pope (GOC XXX) had had a series of meetings, under the watchful gaze of General Wavell, to discuss the forthcoming Operation Crusader. Godwin-Austen was confident that his three Divisions would be primed and ready to begin on 4 November. Pope knew that his three Divisions would need time to exercise together. The men of 2nd Armoured Division were well trained and, for the most part, battle-hardened, as were the Indians and New Zealanders. Once 22nd Armoured Brigade arrived at Tobruk, Pope wanted three weeks of training all his forces together. He estimated that XXX Corps would be ready for action by 18 November, but it would probably take at least another week to arrive at the front.
O’Connor wanted Pope to see if he could shave some time off his estimation. While he had every confidence in Godwin-Austen’s Corps to reach Misrata, he really needed XXX Corps to be prepared to take over the next phase to Tripoli. The chances that XIII Corps would be exhausted by the time they fought through to Misrata was very real. The South Africans now had two Division’s worth of men in Egypt and Libya. If one of those Divisions could move to Tobruk, this would allow XXX Corps to exercise in the vicinity of Marsa Al Brega. That would cut 270 miles off the distance to catch up to XIII Corps. Pope agreed, with the proviso that the Navy could land the Valiant I* tanks at Benghazi rather than Tobruk. Wavell was happy to ask Major-General George Brink to move 1st South African Division to Tobruk. Brink had been complaining about the way his men were being used to reinforce the defences at Matruh. Moving up to Tobruk would give the South Africans more time to train and exercise.
O’Connor asked that if XXX Corps could be ready to move to Sirte when XIII Corps began the attack, then they would be in a position to follow up. Knowing the ability of the three Divisions in XXX Corps, O’Connor put another idea to his Corps commanders. The Long Range Desert Group were doing wonders reconnoitring the desert. Throwing a left hook through the desert had been consistently effective so far. O’Connor leaned over the map and started to conjecture how a left hook in this case could become the knock-out blow.
The forces in the Western Desert were now designated as Eighth Army. The creation of XXX Corps in August had been the final ingredient, with Lieutenant-General O’Connor becoming Army Commander. September saw the arrival of Lieutenant-General Vyvyan Pope as GOC XXX Corps. He had begun working immediately with the three Divisions (2nd Armoured, 4th Indian, 2nd New Zealand) in his command.
WS9B and WS10 Convoys had brought enough Valiant I* tanks to fully re-equip 1st and 22nd Armoured Brigades, and so 2nd Armoured Division had been reconstituted. Instead of a Support Group, 3rd Indian Motor Brigade would continue to be attached, and the Division would have its own Royal Artillery and Engineers attached, along with Signals and all the other parts that make the Division effective.
The 4th Indian Division was once again at full strength and Headquartered in Tobruk. The Greeks had been able to form a complete Brigade to take over from the New Zealanders on Crete. With all three Brigades back together, General Freyberg’s 2nd New Zealand Division were preparing to move forward to Tobruk to join the 4th Indian Division. It was there that 2nd Armoured Division was also preparing to move to. The hold-up was the Valiant I* tanks on WS10 which had arrived at the end of September, to equip 22nd Armoured Brigade were still to be transported to Tobruk.
Lieutenant-Generals O’Connor (GOC 8th Army), Reade Godwin-Austen (GOC XIII) and Vyvyan Pope (GOC XXX) had had a series of meetings, under the watchful gaze of General Wavell, to discuss the forthcoming Operation Crusader. Godwin-Austen was confident that his three Divisions would be primed and ready to begin on 4 November. Pope knew that his three Divisions would need time to exercise together. The men of 2nd Armoured Division were well trained and, for the most part, battle-hardened, as were the Indians and New Zealanders. Once 22nd Armoured Brigade arrived at Tobruk, Pope wanted three weeks of training all his forces together. He estimated that XXX Corps would be ready for action by 18 November, but it would probably take at least another week to arrive at the front.
O’Connor wanted Pope to see if he could shave some time off his estimation. While he had every confidence in Godwin-Austen’s Corps to reach Misrata, he really needed XXX Corps to be prepared to take over the next phase to Tripoli. The chances that XIII Corps would be exhausted by the time they fought through to Misrata was very real. The South Africans now had two Division’s worth of men in Egypt and Libya. If one of those Divisions could move to Tobruk, this would allow XXX Corps to exercise in the vicinity of Marsa Al Brega. That would cut 270 miles off the distance to catch up to XIII Corps. Pope agreed, with the proviso that the Navy could land the Valiant I* tanks at Benghazi rather than Tobruk. Wavell was happy to ask Major-General George Brink to move 1st South African Division to Tobruk. Brink had been complaining about the way his men were being used to reinforce the defences at Matruh. Moving up to Tobruk would give the South Africans more time to train and exercise.
O’Connor asked that if XXX Corps could be ready to move to Sirte when XIII Corps began the attack, then they would be in a position to follow up. Knowing the ability of the three Divisions in XXX Corps, O’Connor put another idea to his Corps commanders. The Long Range Desert Group were doing wonders reconnoitring the desert. Throwing a left hook through the desert had been consistently effective so far. O’Connor leaned over the map and started to conjecture how a left hook in this case could become the knock-out blow.
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Things are not looking well for the axis. There's two full corps of well-equipped British troops with plenty of veteran formations among them, against what amounts to ramshackle remnants a few brigades strong.
One potential change from OTL which I can see is that if North Africa is cleaned up and Japan repulsed from Malaysia before the British are ready for some alternate version of Operation Husky, the people who are calling for a Balkan front might get their wish. Meaning that parts of southeastern Europe which ended up in the Warsaw pact OTL might not do so in this timeline.
One potential change from OTL which I can see is that if North Africa is cleaned up and Japan repulsed from Malaysia before the British are ready for some alternate version of Operation Husky, the people who are calling for a Balkan front might get their wish. Meaning that parts of southeastern Europe which ended up in the Warsaw pact OTL might not do so in this timeline.
Good update. the Axis forces are really in the toilet now, aren't they?
I'm not sure a mere 50 Matilda IIs will be enough to scupper the Japanese advance in Malaysia. It will certainly make it harder, as will the fact that the troops they're facing actually know about tanks, but I don't think it's enough in itself to turn the tide.
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